Curse

snaek · Jun 16, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Have fun finding a team for FoW then. People simply do not care about "playing" - they care about making those few million gold so that have the means to achieve the last things that are left - super duper grind titles.

speak for yourself... i played uw/fow numerous times pre-factions for fun (and still do when i got friends who want/need to do it).
personally i feel uw/fow are the best areas for people to enjoy over and over again. urgoz/deep is too gimmicky, and doa is pretty much just broken.

upier · Jun 16, 2009, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

speak for yourself... i played uw/fow numerous times pre-factions for fun (and still do when i got friends who want/need to do it).
personally i feel uw/fow are the best areas for people to enjoy over and over again. urgoz/deep is too gimmicky, and doa is pretty much just broken.

Bolded the important part.

snaek · Jun 16, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

^whats your point? i was implying that i'd still do the same today if the uwsc teams went away. i do not think that uw/fow would die if the farming builds were removed. they might not be as popular as they were pre-factions, but they'd definitely still be fairly alive (unlike deep/urgoz/doa which are pretty dead).

Ghost Omel · Jun 16, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

......Besides they are ELITE areas.. so it implies a balanced team..of some sort.. and they werent mean to be cpmpleted in 30 mins....SO i think even by removing the farm builds..people who want to do them will.. by either finding the guilds that gladly run the areas or forimng a lucky PiG..and maybe those who WANT to start will learn how to do their part on the tema improving over all skill lvl of the player base..isnt this a WiN WiN....i cant say anything about impactr on so called "Economy"..so if any 1 else want can take over from here =)

upier · Jun 16, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

^whats your point? i was implying that i'd still do the same today if the uwsc teams went away. i do not think that uw/fow would die if the farming builds were removed. they might not be as popular as they were pre-factions, but they'd definitely still be fairly alive (unlike deep/urgoz/doa which are pretty dead).

After they nerfed Ursan, FoW died. And if they nerf the farm builds - it will die again. Well, until a new super duper overpowered build pops-up.
But then people will be bitching about that one.

FoW doesn't make sense as a 2 hour PuG-quest that one might actually fail if one just wants the rewards.
It makes sense as a 30 minute quest.

Kendel · Jun 16, 2009, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilDeath

Stop taking the fun out of the game. (Referring to keg farming here) I didn't do it very often, but when I did, it sure as hell helped a lot to remove you from the usual grind that GW has become (see zcoin grind for something like an epack as latest example, loads more similar examples). Keg farming was just awesome, relaxing, brainless fun, while blowing shit up. There was a certain satisfaction to that - BOOM! YEAH!
Same principle applies to SF / RoJ.
Games are supposed to be fun, yeah? Anyway, what's done is done.

No it really doesn't. Someone already said it. If you want to piss around and randomly kill stuff in a brainless way YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG GAME. Go buy Prototype, that doesn't have to be balanced, its a single player game, if you choose to glide around, whipgrab yourself onto a Chopper then go on a rampage and destroy a Military Base thats your business.

Your excuse is so flawed its funny. Zomg i want to avoid the 'grind' that i largely inflict upon myself (does grinding 3million cash to attain Drunkard, etc somehow make you better?) by instead of playing the game, travelling into an explorable on my own, hardly relaxing because if you don't keep your skills up you die, and spamming kegs. Its as if you don't find anything fun unless you get a modest cash sum, is the equation something like: Fun = k*Cash^-t, where k is the constant of loot scaling and party size and t is time?

Therefore to keep fun to a maximum clearly the only way is to have a small party (if applicable) and to complete things in the smallest amount of time for the most cash.

Arkantos · Jun 16, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

After they nerfed Ursan, FoW died. And if they nerf the farm builds - it will die again. Well, until a new super duper overpowered build pops-up.
But then people will be bitching about that one.

FoW doesn't make sense as a 2 hour PuG-quest that one might actually fail if one just wants the rewards.
It makes sense as a 30 minute quest.

Died for who? The hardcore gold/title grinders? Yeah, it died for them. It didn't die for people who played the game to have fun.

FoW shouldn't take 2 hours to complete, but it shouldn't take only 30 minutes. 1:30 in FoW used to be an amazing time, now people can clear it in 40 minutes and complain that they didn't get 35. Do you really think all the elite areas (excluding DoA) being able to be finished in under an hour is a good thing? These are supposed to be elite areas.

Abedeus · Jun 16, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Died for who? The hardcore gold/title grinders? Yeah, it died for them. It didn't die for people who played the game to have fun.

FoW shouldn't take 2 hours to complete, but it shouldn't take only 30 minutes. 1:30 in FoW used to be an amazing time, now people can clear it in 40 minutes and complain that they didn't get 35. Do you really think all the elite areas (excluding DoA) being able to be finished in under an hour is a good thing? These are supposed to be elite areas.

STOP DENYING US CONTENT YOU ELITIST!!*

...what, better if I say it now than someone who actually believs his own words.

*- yes, I'm making fun of people using that argument

upier · Jun 16, 2009, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Died for who? The hardcore gold/title grinders? Yeah, it died for them. It didn't die for people who played the game to have fun.

FoW shouldn't take 2 hours to complete, but it shouldn't take only 30 minutes. 1:30 in FoW used to be an amazing time, now people can clear it in 40 minutes and complain that they didn't get 35. Do you really think all the elite areas (excluding DoA) being able to be finished in under an hour is a good thing? These are supposed to be elite areas.

And these players can now already play for fun.
I do.
The problem here is that people seem to expect that the farmers will switch to running normal teams after the nerf.
They won't. They'll move onto their next farming ground.
Which means if people are unable to get a team to do FoW shouldn't kid themselves that they'll magically be able to do so after the nerf.
The only people left will be the people who are bad at this game. Otherwise they'd move to the new next best thing.

And do you really want to play with those?

snaek · Jun 17, 2009, 01:02 AM // 01:02

fow didnt die nearly as much as doa did. thats what ive been trying to say this whole time: uw/fow will still remain as the more popular elite areas of the game.

Arkantos · Jun 17, 2009, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

fow didnt die nearly as much as doa did. thats what ive been trying to say this whole time: uw/fow will still remain as the more popular elite areas of the game.

That's because UW/FoW are arguably easier with much better rewards.

R.Shayne · Jun 17, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

They won't. They'll move onto their next farming ground.

I have to agree because I am a farmer. I remember when Ursan was nerfed, before midnight farmers came up with something that looks very close to the speed clears we have today. That nerf lasted all of four hours and farmers went right back at it. Farmers will adapt, they have been doing it for four years now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Which means if people are unable to get a team to do FoW shouldn't kid themselves that they'll magically be able to do so after the nerf.

I think this is where people don't understand the reason behind the speed clears, it is the end chest they want and they want to open that end chest as much as possible as fast as possible. They are not going to join people running crap builds. Farmers are going to require people to run a certain build, be a certain profession, and play a certain way.

Those that want to enjoy playing in the FoW and/or UW I suggest you do what I have done, get a second account and use the heroes from that account, 1 player + 6 Heroes.

snaek · Jun 17, 2009, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkantos

That's because UW/FoW are arguably easier with much better rewards.

yes, among other reasons. i'm not denying whatever the reasons may be but as long as they are in place, people will continue to do uw/fow after the farm builds have been nerfed. (which was the main point of argument... whether or not uw/fow will die)

Toxic OnyX · Jun 17, 2009, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

yes, among other reasons. i'm not denying whatever the reasons may be but as long as they are in place, people will continue to do uw/fow after the farm builds have been nerfed. (which was the main point of argument... whether or not uw/fow will die)

/agreed

The point most people seem to miss is that the argument of "nerf xxx skills and the game will die" is complete and utter rubbish.

This game is NOT run by the farmers who represent a minority of the player base.

However it will be extremely funny to watch the QQ fest when a-net (eventually bother to) Nerf SF based farming builds (along with CoP, RoJ etc...)

The problem with a lot of farmers is that outside of the farm build they have learnt through non-stop repetitive re-use the majority cannot play any type of balanced or profession based bar (unless for a sin it is crit scythe or crit barrage which is again yet another broken mechanic courtesy of a-net)

I even had a discussion a few nights a go in a PuG with a monk who was explaining to the group that a monk should be offensive using RoJ etc... and that playing a support role is no reason for having a monk really when ele/rt heal better, didn't seem to understand that it shows how broken the game is that an ele using a secondary profession provides better healing than a monk, but as long as the monk could use arcane echo + RoJ he was happy so there was no point discussing it further

TBh as much as I want to see SF, CoP, RoJ re-balanced, I want a complete skill overhaul much much more as the current skill sets are supremely unbalanced at times (as per crit scythe mentioned above etc...)

EPO Bot · Jun 17, 2009, 09:00 AM // 09:00

I think crit barrage sins are actually a great way to use the secondary profession thing well.

faraaz · Jun 17, 2009, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem here is that people seem to expect that the farmers will switch to running normal teams after the nerf.
They won't.

That, I think is the crux of the matter which the q.qers on Guru fail to realise. Upier, I love your post. ^^

Toxic OnyX · Jun 17, 2009, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Full Quote

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And these players can now already play for fun.
I do.
The problem here is that people seem to expect that the farmers will switch to running normal teams after the nerf.
They won't. They'll move onto their next farming ground.
Which means if people are unable to get a team to do FoW shouldn't kid themselves that they'll magically be able to do so after the nerf.
The only people left will be the people who are bad at this game. Otherwise they'd move to the new next best thing.

And do you really want to play with those?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem here is that people seem to expect that the farmers will switch to running normal teams after the nerf.
They won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

That, I think is the crux of the matter which the q.qers on Guru fail to realise. Upier, I love your post. ^^

OK regarding Upiers full quote (not the tiny bit you pulled out to try and support your point)

1. Who cares? if the farmers leave they leave, if they move onto something else then hopefully a-net may get their heads out of their backsides quicker and keep re-balancing the skills to stop game breaking builds from "speed clearing" areas. If they leave the game completely then what loss is it exactly?

2. To address Upiers 2nd main point

a) you assume that if the farmers leave FoW then other players will leave because they cannot get a team? kind of self-contradictory as 90% of the time the only people "doing" FoW are farmers

b) your statement literally equates to if the farmers leave the game then all we are left with is the bad players, which is about as opposite from the truth as it could be.

I have yet to meet many farmers that are good at anything other than running an area specific OP build.

Farmers care less about the game as long as they can repeat certain areas a mind numbing amount of times in the hope of some shiny crap dropping in order to prove their leetness, or they can say " hey we cleared UW in 42 seconds, we are teh 1337ness!!!1!"

take them away from that area and tell them to run a profession specific build in a standard honor/balance team and they always do 2 things, cry about how their chosen profession is lame (without pve or OP bars) and cry about the fact it has exhausted their goldfish like attention span (wtf this area takes more than 30 minutes!!!1!)

Farmers are farmers, not game players and certainly no better than a bunch of bots, they are good at what they do, but when you have run the same area over and over and over and over and over (you get the picture) again then you should never fail at it, still doesn't mean that a-net should allow it to stop these people from having a cry.

Broken skillset/game mechanic is broken, no matter what argument you put forward the fact is that it is broken and should be fixed.

Sjeng · Jun 17, 2009, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem here is that people seem to expect that the farmers will switch to running normal teams after the nerf.
They won't.

Everyone should know or realise that. And so, logically speaking, nerfing skills like RoJ and SF will not help change the game at all.
I'm for keeping it as it is, so the people using them can still do so, and have their fun. I'm pretty happy that I can use a permasin running build to run my guildmates to places onze in a while, or farm festival drops. Sure, there are other ways, but this way is simply easier, and as said, nothing will change if anet nerfs them. So leave it be. It won't make any difference anyway.

And @ above post: when is something broken? If a certain skillset is very usefull for farming solo, but not so when playing PvE, I don't consider it broken. SF is useless in PvE, so I don't see how SF would break PvE gameplay.
Ursan was a good example of a broken skill, and it got fixed. It allowed people to play through HM missions WAY too easily on ANY profession. This wasn't what Anet intended, so they fixed it. Good. IMO SF is exactly what anet intended it to be, they already changed it a couple of times, so they've given it some thought already, and now it's probably what they want it to be. If it still allows for "broken" speed-clears, then it's not the skill that's broken, but the area that's being cleared. If one A/E can speed through an entire mission, then the mission is flawed. Other professions can't do this with SF, so it's different from Ursan.

Furthermore I agree that there's lots of good players around, other than farmers, and yes perhaps a lot of farmers can't do anything else, because they just can't be bothered to practice balanced PvE. But who are we to tell them to change their way of playing? And certainly not all farmers are bad players.
Speed-clears may not have been Anet's intention, so that might be fixed in the future, but there will still be farmers, and there will still be people playing PvE.

Toxic OnyX · Jun 17, 2009, 12:36 PM // 12:36

If 1 A/E can speed through the mission then it is the mission that is flawed and not the broken skill bar, despite the mission being in place as is in excess of 2 years and countless skill balances since then ?

tell me that your joking, please.

then again I re-read your post and it summarises down to the fact that you simply fail to understand balance in any form and that the current SF farmer bars are game breaking but you fail to see a problem with that, then you try and use Ursan as a reference point to broken skills.

URSAN was a skill that provided a sealed deck build what was simply balanced incorrectly as they failed to take into account what would happen if a group used the bar together (it became OP), regardless you needed at least 5 ursan and 2 monks to make any farm or mission run viable.

A/E is a skills specified bar that is so unbelievably broken that 1 person ALONE can farm or run through 90% of the game with no help whatsoever.

so lets put these two builds on the Broken-Balance-o-meter and which do you think shows as the most broken?

ursan = crap solo, only good with 4+ other bears and needs monks
SF sin = unreal solo, even more ridiculous in a group (monks not needed)

So in effect the argument you put forward proves that you don't really understand balance in the least and that using Ursan as a way to prove that Perma-sin isn't broken has to be about the lamest argument I have seen put forward in months.

Broken is Broken, the skills used in the standard perma bar break the game mechanic to pieces so it clearly needs fixing.

good try at arguing the point but /fail

edit:
IDEA = Easiest fix a-net could put in place for Shadow Form nerf is:

SF = Mist form variant (cant take or deal phys damage, can still be targetted by spells)
&
DP = sin skills recharge 20% faster (debuff from 33%)

faraaz · Jun 17, 2009, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxic OnyX

If 1 A/E can speed through the mission then it is the mission that is flawed and not the broken skill bar, despite the mission being in place as is in excess of 2 years and countless skill balances since then ?

I'm not going to touch the rest of your post with a ten foot pole because you are inch away from rageflame'ing the thread...

But here's a fun fact!

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Rot_Wallow

Skills

14 Blood Magic, 11 Curses (normal mode)
19 Blood Magic, 16 Curses, 16 Soul Reaping (hard mode)

* Fetid Ground Fetid Ground
* Jaundiced Gaze Jaundiced Gaze
* Vampiric Bite Vampiric Bite
* Weaken Knees Weaken Knees (elite)
* Stun on Critical Hit (monster skill)

Observe, the previous functionality of Weaken Knees caused knockdown, which synergises with Fetid Ground's poison if KD function. After Anet changed Weaken Knees' functionality, the poor Rot Wallows now have a broken skillbar! I hope that you can see through your righteous indignation to observe that Anet fails at balancing PvE content, so atleast in this case, it is the PvE enemy that needed to be updated along with the elite skill. This did not happen. This has never happened. This is why it is the Mission that is at fault, not the build & not the farmers.

I understand you despise most perma sf farmers and their ilk, but I'm afraid you belong to the vocal minority here. GW has MUCH bigger issues than Shadow Form, and hopefully your reponse will be a tad more rational than your previous ones.